Four MILLION Toyotas to be recalled...

[Tim25]

http://www.abc2news.com/news/local/story/Latest-on-Massive-Toyota-Recall/I7hnab9lGE2EBBFXMxBS_A.cspx

Toyota is recalling some four million vehicles to correct a potentially deadly problem that causes them to race forward uncontrollably.

It's frightening to think about.  Toyota owner Elizabeth James recalls, “My foot was pressing on the brake super, super hard and I wasn't slowing down."  She says what happens is your car begins to accelerate and you simply have no control.

So far more than 2,000 Toyota owners have reported similar scenarios, like Bulent Ezal, “all the sudden the car surged with force, and I was thrown back to the seat.”  He survived.  Sadly, his wife of 46 years did not.

An estimated 16 deaths are connected to Toyota through lawsuits and police reports.

At first, the world's largest automaker blamed the floor mats.  But Marianna Eisner refutes that, “The mat was nowhere near the accelerator.”

Safety analysts say the number of complaints about runaway Toyotas took off after 2002, the same year the company went to an all computer and wire system.
Something one lawyer for Toyota crash victims says is likely to blame, “We've all experienced computer glitches in using our own personal computers where something just happens but we don't know why."

Toyota is now recalling nearly 4 million cars to replace the gas pedal.  For now, Toyota will be shortening the pedals.  And then in April, they’re hoping to come out with new pedal replacements.  It’s a solution safety expert Sean Kane thinks is a good start, “This problem can't be explained solely by floor mats.”

 Toyota officials have said all along the problem is not electronic and rejected the idea again on a phone conference call with reporters.  A Toyota spokesperson says, “We can come up with no indication whatsoever that there is a throttle or electronic control system malfunction.”

Now, if you ever find yourself in this situation, experts say the best advice is try and shift your car into neutral.

http://cn.reuters.com/article/companyNewsEng/idCNN2534908620091125

* Toyota recall covers 4 mln vehicles, its largest ever

* Action goes beyond initial step involving floor mats

* Recall takes aim at runaway car risk after accidents (Updates with previous NHTSA, adds analyst comment)

By Bernie Woodall

DETROIT, Nov 25 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T: 行情) will fix the accelerator pedals in 4 million cars and trucks to address a safety issue linked to bursts of sudden acceleration and deadly accidents, the company and the U.S. government said on Wednesday.

The action, which represents the largest-ever U.S. safety recall by the Japanese automaker, aims to address the risk that floor mats in the vehicles can come loose and trap the accelerator pedal on some of Toyota's most popular models including the Camry and hybrid Prius.

Toyota had initially urged owners to remove floor mats in affected vehicles sold over the last six years.

But under the more sweeping and costly recall detailed on Wednesday, Toyota said it would reconfigure and replace accelerator pedals and take other steps after an investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Toyota said it would install a new brake override system on five models starting next year that will cut power to the engine when the brake pedal is applied even if the accelerator is also engaged.

On Camry and Avalon and Lexus ES350 models, the automaker will also reshape the floor of the vehicle to create more space under the accelerator pedal.

The massive recall represents a threat to Toyota's image for safety at a time when the automaker is struggling to return to profitability after being hit by an industry-wide sales slump and missteps tied to its own rapid expansion.

Earlier this month, the NHTSA rebuked Toyota for issuing "inaccurate and misleading information" after the automaker said "no defect exists" in cases where the floor mat was properly installed.

In fact, NHTSA said, it had concluded that the Toyota models covered by the recall had a "very serious defect" and simply replacing or removing the floor mats would not be enough.

"Toyota's reputation remains strong and consumers remain loyal, but data from independent studies increasingly show Toyota's quality is slipping," said IHS Global Insight analyst Aaron Bragman.

"Toyota had the aim of becoming General Motors for many years, and now it has many of the same problems that GM had, like overcapacity and quality issues," he said.

CALIFORNIA CRASH

The most immediate catalyst for the Toyota safety action was a crash that killed four people outside San Diego in August. In that incident, an off-duty California state trooper and three members of his family were killed in a crash when the Lexus ES350 he was driving accelerated out of control.

NHTSA said it had received reports of 100 incidents, including 17 crashes and five fatalities, possibly linked to floor mats and accelerator pedals.

Other estimates of the number of incidents of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles run higher.

ABC News said earlier this month that it had found reports of 16 deaths and more than 200 accidents linked to sudden acceleration.

OK, so I have a few issues with this.  Right now Toyota is blaming the floor mats, yet they're replacing the gas pedal.  Hmmmm seems to me they want to deflect attention from a fairly serious design flaw, one that they've been producing for 6+ YEARS (recall applies to some 2004 models).  I believe if it really was a floor mat issue (like Mazda had with the all weather mats & the MS3), wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to fix the mat?  You can't tell me that retrofitting a different gas pedal and a brake interrupt system is more cost effective than a minor mat redesign.

The other thing that's driving me nuts about this story is the reporting of a few people who have been killed by this malfunction.  While nobody deserves to be killed by a screwed up car, don't people have a clue?  If your car suddenly accelerates and you can't stop it with the brake - why wouldn't you either a) put the car in neutral or b) shut off the ignition?  It seems pretty simple logic, yet people just went for the ride, foot on the brake until something solid stopped the car.  One of the people killed was a highway patrol officer!  Shouldn't he know better?
[/rant]

Anyway, does anyone else think Toyota is hiding something serious?  Or am I just being a conspiracy nut?   

      TIM

Edit: Found another article with a bit more info...

[HeaTransfer]

OK, so I have a few issues with this.  Right now Toyota is blaming the floor mats, yet they're replacing the gas pedal.  Hmmmm seems to me they want to deflect attention from a fairly serious design flaw, one that they've been producing for 6+ YEARS (recall applies to some 2004 models).  I believe if it really was a floor mat issue (like Mazda had with the all weather mats & the MS3), wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to fix the mat?  You can't tell me that retrofitting a different gas pedal and a brake interrupt system is more cost effective than a minor mat redesign.

Read between the lines.   I think this is Toyota's way out without directly admitting liability.  Also, I believe that Toyota could be facing a huge legal liability should this issue be brought to court -- all that stuff about "knowingly manufacturing a malfunctioning device" etc etc etc.

While nobody deserves to be killed by a screwed up car, don't people have a clue? 

The answer is pretty obvious:
NO.

I believe that many people probably panic in this situation.  Furthermore, not everyone is that knowledgeable mechanically (hard to believe, but true).

[Golddragoner]

You have to consider, its impossible to make anything foolproof, fools are just too ingenious...

On that note, most people only know what to do to drive they car, they have no idea what to do in a panic situation except stomp on the brake pedal. in the case of WOT, the brake pedal isn't going to do shit to slow you down. In an autotransmission it will just think it needs more power so it will downshift. Another downside to automatic

[Username]

In the case of the highway patrol officer, he was driving a Lexus ES350 service loaner which has an engine start/stop button so as a result turning off the ignition is not as obvious to do.

  Kev

[Keiichi]

In a panic situation, especially if the car becomes WOT....it doesn't take long for the car to reach a lethal speed....and I don't think many people would think clearly enough in that time.

But man....2000 cases.....

[Username]

On a percentage basis that's about .05% of 4 million cars.

  Kev

[HeaTransfer]

You have to consider, its impossible to make anything foolproof, fools are just too ingenious...

On that note, most people only know what to do to drive they car, they have no idea what to do in a panic situation except stomp on the brake pedal. in the case of WOT, the brake pedal isn't going to do shit to slow you down. In an autotransmission it will just think it needs more power so it will downshift. Another downside to automatic

I just have to jump in here -- in any ordinary car, braking power exceeds engine power.  This may not be true of the Veyrons of the world, but I believe that it still is.

I can only assume that a) people have panicked, which is understandable b) it feels counterintuitive to brake and "not do much", leading them to give up.

[DKaz]

Can an automatic transmission be switched to neutral? This would be the equivalent of me smashing the clutch pedal in, coming to a complete stop if I can't unstick the gas pedal, and turning the car off.

[jimmy]

yeah u can switch into neutral from D at any time without even stepping on the brake

[DKaz]

Oh yah I remember one guy saying that he tried to go to Neutral, then he thought the engine would blow up so he went back to Drive?!   Some people don't deserve to drive.

Neutral
Stop
Turn Off Engine

Simple, folks. Don't turn off the engine while the car is in motion, you'll lose power braking. Just deal with the redline madness for a bit while you come to a complete stop.

[oracle]

My 86 prelude had this same issue with the mat, on 2 occasions I had to shut off the engine and it worked as I am not dead.

Was the es350 one where the guy actually called 911 for like a min then crashed? It sucks to hear, but if you have time to dial 911 and have a convo, you think logically you would be able to turn the car off!

[Username]

Yep, he called 911 and the dispatcher tried to help him.

  Kev

[MS3Pilot]

I noticed the mat holding down my gas pedal on my MS3 right away...had to do the shut off and clutch in thing a couple times. Thankfully Mazda listened to me right away! lol

Toyota should have done something right away and not waited for that many fatalities and accidents!

Pete

[Great68]

Are the cars being recalled all drive by wire?

[Tim25]

Are the cars being recalled all drive by wire?

Yes, but Toyota is still blaming the floor mats. 

     TIM

[jurgenk]

Another 2 million to be recalled for similar issues:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34981335/ns/business-autos

[Monster J]

On the list it shows 2007-2010 camery, does that include the hybird? My sister in law drives a 2009 Camery Hybird, if it does include that model, I better tell her to get her car fixed.

[derrick]

On the list it shows 2007-2010 camery, does that include the hybird? My sister in law drives a 2009 Camery Hybird, if it does include that model, I better tell her to get her car fixed.

Hmmm... Usually they publish VIN numbers as well.

[mazdafreak]

This must include the pontiac vibes as they are all toyota.

[Tim25]

Well I called it.  The latest recall has nothing to do with the mats and has everything to do with the fly by wire throttle.  This is going to seriously hurt Toyota - God knows they really don't have much in the way if interesting product, but they've always sold because of the reliability. 

Good call on the Pontiac, I haven't heard anything about them.  I wonder if they have a different computer or throttle from the Matrix?

     TIM

EDIT:  Look what I found.  The problem has affected Peugeot / Citroen as well: http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100131/business/eu_peugeot_citroen_recall