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Author Topic: Toyota Suspends sales of Selected Vehicles  (Read 1612 times)
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Tim25
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2010, 04:14:11 PM »

Ford's been kicking Toyota's butt lately and this certainly won't make things any better.  Like the Audi gas pedal issue many years ago, my guess is that it'll take a very long time for Toyota to regain people's loyalty and trust.

The difference between the Audi issue and Toyota's is that there was nothing wrong with the Audis - it was just that dumb Americans couldn't operate a car with pedals reasonably close together.

      TIM
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2010, 01:31:05 AM »

Does Mazda have the engine override feature in its cars? Like when both the gas pedal and the brake are depressed, the engine will be cut off by itself.
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Tim25
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2010, 07:05:15 AM »

The engine override feature is bullshit.  I would hate to have that in the car, sometimes you want to tap the brakes while cornering to make the car turn a bit better.  It would really suck if suddenly the throttle was cut.  It's a bullshit fix, simply because the average driver is a fucking moron.  Like the guy in the National Post said the other day, "if you have time to call 911, you have time to SHUT OFF THE ENGINE!".  Or even better, simply put the car in neutral and slow down safely and in full control.  It ain't rocket surgery!

      TIM

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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2010, 01:30:51 PM »

I can't speak of all Mazdas, but the first gen 3 does not have a brake/throttle interlock.

I would not want one either, and given how Mazda markets their vehicles I can't see them installing such.  Left-foot braking and heel-and-toe can be very useful or even essential in racing.
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2010, 07:03:41 PM »

Found this editorial on C&D

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/10q1/toyota_recall_scandal_media_circus_and_stupid_drivers-editorial

First, What to Do if Your Car (Not Just a Toyota) Starts to Accelerate Uncontrollably

If your car starts accelerating unexpectedly, hit the brake (it's the one to the left of the gas) and shift into neutral. After you do this, the engine may race loudly but the car won't accelerate. Pull off the road, brake to a stop, shift to park, and shut off the car. This is a simple solution we guarantee will save your life in any car that suffers from unintended acceleration. For more, read our story “How To Deal With Unintended Acceleration,” which is based on our own instrumented testing.

How Big is This Problem?

We're no Toyota apologists, but if you look past the media circus, the numbers don't reveal a meaningful problem. Every man, woman, and child in the U.S. has approximately a one-in-8000 chance of perishing in a car accident every year. Over a decade, that's about one in 800. Given the millions of cars included in the Toyota recalls and the fewer than 20 alleged deaths over the past decade, the alleged fatality rate is about one death per 200,000 recalled Toyotas. Even if all the alleged deaths really are resultant from vehicle defects—highly unlikely—and even if all the worst things people are speculating about Toyotas are true, and you're driving one, and you aren't smart or calm enough to shift to neutral if the thing surges, you're still approximately 250 times likelier to die in one of these cars for reasons having nothing to do with unintended acceleration. So if you can muster the courage to get into a car and drive, the additional alleged risk of driving a Toyota is virtually negligible.

What's Wrong with Toyotas?

1. Floor mats. In some cases, an unsecured driver's floor mat can supposedly jam the gas pedal. Complaints and deaths stemming from this issue led to the first Toyota recall. Secure your floor mats, take them out, or, if you're too lazy to do either of those and the mat jams the accelerator, shift to neutral.

2. Sticky throttles. The accelerator may stick in some Toyotas. NHTSA hasn't determined that this has actually caused any fatalities, but there is enough evidence that the throttle may stick to warrant a recall. If this happens to you, shift to neutral.

3. The "electronic issue." Unlike vehicles from some other automakers, Toyotas don't kill the throttle when you hit the brakes. This means it's possible to apply both at the same time. Our own instrumented testing determined that you can safely brake a car from highway speed, even with the throttle pegged. But if the accelerator is floored and the car is in gear, repeated stabs at the pedal and modulation of speed with the brake will eventually overheat the brakes and cause them to fail. Pumping the brakes is a bad idea beyond the overheating issue. When the throttle is stuck open, the engine isn’t producing sufficient vacuum to enable power assist for the brakes, so press the brake pedal firmly once and don’t let up. (Some allege that electromagnetic interference could be causing the electronic throttles in Toyotas to become stuck open; this is completely unsubstantiated. It’s also possible that alien tractor beams are to blame.)

The lack of a throttle kill is probably the explanation for Toyotas' higher reported rate of "unintended acceleration" than other brands. But it's critical to note that the lack of such a throttle kill isn't a defect. It isn't Toyota's responsibility to account for every possible stupid thing people might do in a car. Anyone so uncoordinated that they can't differentiate the pedals and operate them independently shouldn't be driving.

And this is going to sound uncharitable, but even if the recall dealing with potentially sticking pedals applies to a lot of Toyotas, why aren’t people just shifting into neutral? Even if the throttle really sticks fully open, it won't have any accelerative impact on the car if it's in neutral. By this point, if you have a Toyota (or any car), and you don't know to shift to neutral if the engine races unexpectedly, you're going to succumb to what can only be described as natural selection.

Some Context: Audi's "Unintended Acceleration"

In 1986, the television program 60 Minutes started Audi's "unintended acceleration" scandal. The show trotted out tearful people, recounted death and carnage, spoke to so-called experts, and generally made it seem like the vehicle in question, the Audi 5000, was a roving menace with a mind of its own. In the end, the U.S. government determined that every single so-called unintended acceleration accident was the result of driver error. Some speculated that because Audi's pedals were closer together than those of some other brands, people were too uncoordinated to choose the correct one. The pedal-placement issue Audi faced at that time parallels the throttle-kill issue Toyota faces now.

What Does This Mean for Toyota?

Even if you buy our argument that most of the "unintended acceleration" issues are actually driver error and the company ultimately is vindicated, Toyota is still screwed. Audi sales were depressed for a decade and a half after the false claims leveled against it. Toyota either blames its customers and faces the wrath of the media or expresses contrition and admits it has quality issues. Perhaps having learned from the backlash against Audi when it—rightly—blamed its customers, Toyota has chosen the latter course of action.

Toyota has earned a reputation in this country over the past 30 years as a maker of utterly dull and utterly reliable transportation appliances. Readers of Consumer Reports and their friends buy them by the millions. But with the notable exception of the Prius (which now is facing its own recall fiasco), Toyota hasn't produced many interesting or exciting products. In Car and Driver comparison tests, Toyotas have generally placed mid-pack for years because they handle poorly and have increasingly chintzy interiors. Over the years, people haven't bought Toyotas because they offered driving thrills or prestige; they bought them because, in the words of one CR loyalist and former serial Camry buyer—this author’s mother—"The ultimate luxury is a car that doesn't ever break." So what happens when quality is called into question and the cars don't offer anything special? Well, Mrs. Dushane now drives a Subaru. Even the pragmatic tire of the banal.

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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2010, 08:51:13 PM »

Wow, Car & Driver has been reading my posts on this subject.  Basically what I said months ago.  I still can't believe that people have died simply because they're FUCKING STOOPID.

Like the guy in the National Post said... "if you have time to call 911 when your throttle sticks, you have time to shift to neutral and shut off the fucking car".  (Fucking added by yours truly).

     TIM
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« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2010, 11:04:58 PM »

has toyota just recently done another set of recalls?   Beyond the big lineup + Prius.... overheard it from some coworkers today
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« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2010, 11:20:19 PM »

I believe it was the Prius brakes -- updating the software or something like that

They are also expanding the brake pedal recall to other models.
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« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2010, 11:33:00 PM »

looks like it's the TACOMA that's getting hit.   Decided to read up a bit on my current events..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100213/ts_afp/japanusautorecallcompanytoyota

cracks in driveshafts..
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2010, 10:29:00 AM »

BREAKING: WSJ says crash data points to pedal misapplication in Toyota sudden acceleration cases

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Quote
After receiving more than 3,000 reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles, the U.S. Department of Transportation has concluded that driver error was actually at fault. According to The Wall Street Journal, investigators analyzing different data recorders from Toyota vehicles found that at the time of these sudden acceleration crashes, the throttles were wide open rather and the brakes were not depressed. Thus, they have reason to believe that drivers were mistakenly stomping on the accelerator rather than slamming the brakes in an attempt to avoid these crashes.

Of the 75 fatal crashes blamed on sudden acceleration, only one incident has actually been verified as being caused by vehicle fault – the Lexus ES350 accident that killed a California highway patrolman and three other passengers last August. Even so, this case was chalked up as an incident where the floor mat trapped the gas pedal, which Toyota quickly issued a recall for.

The WSJ also reports that U.S. Transportation Department officials have stated publicly that they have yet to find any electronic glitches in Toyota vehicles that could lead to these crashes. The only defects proven to be true are those that have been outlined by Toyota itself – floor mats and sticky accelerator pedals that are slow to return to idle.

So while Toyota may not have been at fault in these sudden acceleration cases, the automaker's image has indeed been seriously tarnished over the past few months. Over eight million Toyota vehicles have been recalled worldwide – a large blemish in automotive history, and it appears that much of the hand-wringing may have been for naught.

Corporate assassination.

Let's see if this news gets as much airtime as the relentless BS that the media and government put Toyota through.

  Kev
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2010, 12:18:22 PM »

Poor Toyota.
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2010, 12:27:55 PM »

This article is on the Wall Street Journal and MSNBC, but no where to be found on FOX or CNN.

Whatever, if not for the acceleration problems, I wouldn't buy a new Toyota because they're all appliances on wheel, but I'll take a Celica GT-FOUR, Supra, MR2, anything with a 20V 4A-GE engine in it, or even the recent Corolla or Matrix XRS any day. For now, I love my regular Celica. Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2010, 06:04:38 PM »

Poor Toyota.
Lol.
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« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2010, 06:23:37 PM »

that's really too bad for toyota.  That's what my instructor has been saying too, he thinks it's most likely driver error and has been saying it for months. 

Funnily enough, in 1986 Audi was under the fire for unintended acceleration as well.  Audi insisted that it was driver error, and installed a lock where you have to press the brake pedal before you can shift into drive.  Voila, problem fixed, no more unintended acceleration.  the NHTSA concluded that people were confused with pedal location, aka driver error.
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2010, 07:15:26 PM »

Corporate assassination.



  Kev

+1

I hope Toyota can recover from this and be stronger than ever.
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« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2010, 10:13:42 PM »

Quote
the throttles were wide open rather and the brakes were not depressed.

Translation:the sensors are reading an "apply fuel" situation and aren't seeing an "apply brake? request.

Now if the sensors are faulty or the computer is incorrectly interpreting the appropriate signals ,then the stored data can not be relied upon.Say someone remapped your keyboard so hitting the  "b" key produces an "f" ,looking at the screen any normal person is gonna say ,"you moron ,you were pushing "f" key.".If this is not an issue with the "drive by wire" ,then one would expect to see acceleration issues with all models.Although I'm not sure if the stats have been posted on a comparison of acceleration issues between DBW and regular mechanical gas pedals .
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 10:53:20 PM by abnormal3 » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2010, 01:24:46 PM »

What abnormal3 says makes sense.
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« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2010, 07:48:02 AM »

Something tells me it's unlikely that the sensors are confusing the brake and throttle systems.  It seems much more likely that idiot human beings are confusing the two and looking for someone other than themselves to blame.

      TIM
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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2010, 09:22:27 AM »

^^^ my thinking as well
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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2010, 04:47:11 PM »

it can't confuse the 2 because the brakes are actually mechanical - no wires involved. Besides, it would be seeing brake and throttle either way, in this case its just seeing wide open throttle. If it was reversed the car would not accelerate but rather brake pretty hard Cheesy
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