HST Referrandom

[DKaz]

I was pro HST even at 12%, now I'm super-pro HST.

Hey this poll question is misleading. Actually the referendum question is misleading, but the poll should reflect the referendum question.

The question is (not exactly, too lazy to find the actual wording) are you in favour of scrapping the HST and going back to GST&PST? You have to vote NO to keep the HST and YES to go back to GST & PST.

[Keiichi]

Let's not forget that if we say "no" that, as a province, we owe the Feds around 1.5 billion dollars...

Regardless if the HST is good or not, that's one part I really hate that the BC Liberals keep on throwing in our face.  THEY decided on that deal so that they can somewhat manage their budget, so it's really not fair to us as taxpayers.  Same with the survey on HSTINBC website.  They keep on saying, would you be willing to sacrifice some service to go back to the GST/PST.  I'm sorry, there were already such and such service before the HST, so don't go around cutting services by using the HST as an excuse.

You built the bed, and I say it should come out of their salaries to pay the 1.5 billion back....not from us again.

[theurgy]

I think the biggest pain was that this was implemented without any public interaction.
It's hard now to go back, and it will most likely have to stay, however what pisses me off was how this change was made against the will of the people. There were numerous attempts to stop it, and yet they still went ahead with it.
The immediate backlash should have at least prompted for a proper debate and round of informing people prior to implementation.

[banjaboy]

Thats the trouble with party politics. we basically elect a dictator for the term. all MP's vote the party line or they get turfed. they dont vote the way their constituants want them to and this is what happens. If this had been introduced with proper debate, consultation with the people it would have been welcomed with open arms. But Gordo was a dictator, a one man show his way or the highway. I hope the new Premier is a little more into consultation. God help us if The NDP get in at the next election. Back to the Dark Ages. I hope they have all learned that if you piss the people off enough we will push back. We can thank the anti HST folks for that, well done Zammer[never thought I would say that...]

[Username]

As for the price, many business are colluded in their pricing. Gas is a prime example.

Absolutely. Gasoline companies, IMO, function in an oliogopoly though. And the issue should with them should be their fixing of prices, not with the HST.

being the devil's advocate,

if HST is all so good, why 4 provinces (lets leave out Alberta as they got $$) not doing HST?

Always the devil's advocate. I can't speak for PEI, Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Quebec as I don't follow their provincial politics. Alberta has no need to switch to HST. They have no PST to combine with GST.
 

if the Liberal gov't didn't lie about the HST and got the Federal grant, will BC still face disadvantage?

Can you clarify this one? I don't recall any instance of lying about a Federal grant.

are those accounting professional groups in flavor of the HST because of the streamlined efficiency? and the nightmare of reinstating PST?

Partially, yes. That being said, we could potentially lose jobs in our industry in the short term because we won't need as many people on an audit team, or PST specialists working for accounting firms. However, we see a long-term benefit in local industry growth driving the need for more accounting professionals.

And from the reading I read, the food industry is suffering with the HST and now raised minimum wages. So is there a positive side for that industry with the HST?

The food industry is not just suffering from the institution of HST. If anything, the new liquor laws are what is impacting them most.

When I go out to eat, I'm not going to order a smaller dish because of the fear of tax on that dish. However, I will drink nothing if I'm worried about losing my car. And with liquor sales being a high gross item, the effect of those lost sales is tremendous. Pointing the finger solely at the HST is unfair and misguided IMO.

Anyways, good discussion.

  Kev

[Username]

I was pro HST even at 12%, now I'm super-pro HST.

Hey this poll question is misleading. Actually the referendum question is misleading, but the poll should reflect the referendum question.

The question is (not exactly, too lazy to find the actual wording) are you in favour of scrapping the HST and going back to GST&PST? You have to vote NO to keep the HST and YES to go back to GST & PST.

Haha. I've had a lot of confusion on this one too. I wonder how many will vote incorrectly? lol.

  Kev

[Username]

Let's not forget that if we say "no" that, as a province, we owe the Feds around 1.5 billion dollars...

Regardless if the HST is good or not, that's one part I really hate that the BC Liberals keep on throwing in our face.  THEY decided on that deal so that they can somewhat manage their budget, so it's really not fair to us as taxpayers.  Same with the survey on HSTINBC website.  They keep on saying, would you be willing to sacrifice some service to go back to the GST/PST.  I'm sorry, there were already such and such service before the HST, so don't go around cutting services by using the HST as an excuse.

I think their question is still valid. The injection of funding from the HST transition has kept some services around.

Without that injection in funding, they would have been forced to cut some services.

  Kev

[Username]

I think the biggest pain was that this was implemented without any public interaction.
It's hard now to go back, and it will most likely have to stay, however what pisses me off was how this change was made against the will of the people. There were numerous attempts to stop it, and yet they still went ahead with it.
The immediate backlash should have at least prompted for a proper debate and round of informing people prior to implementation.

That was their biggest failing. And hence why their party popularity has decreased and the then Premier paid for it with his position.

However, the question of whether HST should stay or not, should be made independent of how the tax was implemented.

I'm afraid that so many people are going to vote against the HST because:

- Of how it was implemented
- Their disdain for Gordon Campbell
- They want to walk the party line (lemmings)

None of those reasons have anything to do with HST or it's relative merits or shortcomings.

  Kev

[M Speed]

if the Liberal gov't didn't lie about the HST and got the Federal grant, will BC still face disadvantage?

Can you clarify this one? I don't recall any instance of lying about a Federal grant.

What I meant was they force the implementation of HST in order to get the grant to balance their budget.
The food industry is not just suffering from the institution of HST. If anything, the new liquor laws are what is impacting them most.

The food industry is not just suffering from the institution of HST. If anything, the new liquor laws are what is impacting them most.

When I go out to eat, I'm not going to order a smaller dish because of the fear of tax on that dish. However, I will drink nothing if I'm worried about losing my car. And with liquor sales being a high gross item, the effect of those lost sales is tremendous. Pointing the finger solely at the HST is unfair and misguided IMO.

The drinking law had affect the food industry. But people should not drink and drive to begin with. Also it came after the hit of HST. So it is like a 1-2 knockout punches to the industry. On a side note, it is cheaper to consume alcohol after HST as the liqour tax is gone.

[theurgy]

I agree, personally after doing some research and realiing the benefits of HST and even reading your post Kev, I have to say I am for the HST at this point.
Given that it's now 10% also softens the blow as well.

[theurgy]

The drinking law had affect the food industry. But people should not drink and drive to begin with. Also it came after the hit of HST. So it is like a 1-2 knockout punches to the industry. On a side note, it is cheaper to consume alcohol after HST as the liqour tax is gone.

That's a great point, I also read an article about how BC's liquor prices are the highest in the country and by a huge margin.
I think a strong review of how BCL taxes and charges for liquor to both, retail and wholesale sales.

[Username]

What I meant was they force the implementation of HST in order to get the grant to balance their budget.

Yes, in some ways I didn't like how they did it. But the reality is, we want to live in this great country and have all these wonderful services, it costs money. They had to do something to stop us from going further into debt. Although, that seems inevitable anyways. Unfortunately as a province we are living beyond our means. We are spending beyond our means. There are some government inefficiencies, over-paid people etc, but overall, those things aren't going to tip things back in our favour. We need to generate more tax revenue. The goal of the HST was not only to get a short-term injection of funds, but to hopefully attract industry to BC instead of losing it to other provinces in Canada who have a favourable tax structure. It's a long-term goal and I hope it works. But without the HST, we would be at a severe disadvantage to attract companies into the province.

Did they lie and just shove it down our throats? Absolutely. I totally get the disgust with how the situation was handled.

The drinking law had affect the food industry. But people should not drink and drive to begin with. Also it came after the hit of HST. So it is like a 1-2 knockout punches to the industry. On a side note, it is cheaper to consume alcohol after HST as the liqour tax is gone.

To clarify, people should not be intoxicated while driving. A blood-alcohol-level under .04 (I think??) is still okay. However, people were scared into not drinking at all, period. The restaurant industry has failed to educate patrons on that fact.

And no, it's not cheaper to drink alcohol now. Previously, a liquor tax was applied post-purchase. Now, the liquor tax is rolled into the raw cost of the alcohol. As we have a provincially controlled liquor board, the prices of alcohol have climbed as they have essentially rolled in the liquor tax into their pricing.

  Kev

[Username]

I agree, personally after doing some research and realiing the benefits of HST and even reading your post Kev, I have to say I am for the HST at this point.
Given that it's now 10% also softens the blow as well.

I'm happy to hear that Mike. I do see the validity in your point about how the tax was handled. Just that it would be a shame to have it scrapped because of the delivery.

And yes, I think the reduction to 10% will really grease the wheels. That being said, I'm concerned with how any revenue shortfall will be made up for.

  Kev

[banjaboy]

The way to "punish" this government for rolling it out the way they did is in the next election if you feel that strongly. I think we all have to focus on the question, do we want a blended HST or not, its really that simple. We cant spank Gordo, he's gone. I hate him and his party for what they did but I see them as the only party to govern this province. Do we need Glenn Clarks towel boy? NOT!! lol

[DJSkingz]

10% HST is great but who's to say it doesn't revert back to 12% after 6 months? I heard somewhere that by lowering the HST just 1% means something along the lines of $2,000,000,000 in lost revenue? Correct me if I'm wrong.

[MZ3_to_MX-5]

Rising fuel costs have only really been an issue for the past 4 years. GST has been around for how long?
It's hard for us to comprehend not having a GST due to our age.
I think the idea of thinking that companies and corporations will lower prices and pass on the operations savings down to the consumer is seriously naive optimistic thought. Any chance to make a profit, is a chance a company will take. It's no immediate impact to the consumer and the blame is shifted over to the government on the part of the consumer anyhow.
Given the logic of trickle down, prices to everything should technically not change to anything.
Ask yourself if you honestly think that companies will pass these savings onto their consumers or use it as a padding because of a failing economy.

Mike, I was talking about rising fuel costs in reference to the implementation of HST. If you don't know, an argument in favour of the HST is that corporations are able to claim a larger input tax credit on purchases to go against the HST they have collected in a period.

As for whether a corporation will pass on their savings to customers, that's an incredibly one-sided view of the situation. That being said, if your competitor is cutting costs as a result of their cost savings, you will likely follow suit or you won't be in business much longer. Perhaps if you were in a monopoly or oliogoply you could fix your pricing and pocket the savings.

The other side of the argument that many people fail to consider is that a business could go out and make greater expenditures as a result of those savings? That money gets reinvested into our economy and stimulates business growth. Whether it's capital expenditures or corporate lunches, there is an effect that trickles down through the economy when a business is doing well.

How about foreign investment? What if Joe Blow corporate giant wants to expand their operation to Canada. If we don't have a competitive tax structure, BC will NOT be in the picture when it comes to landing that investment. Foreign investment creates jobs, increases spending and could benefit the companies you and I work at. A company wants to do a software upgrade? The people who got a job there want to buy a new car? The implications are endless. However, if we retain the dated and abhorrent PST tax structure you can kiss those potential benefits goodbye.

At the end of the day, when I listen to someone rant about the HST I see someone who is looking at short-term losses and fails to see the big picture. And furthermore, when I ask a proponent of the PST structure WHY we should keep the PST they are left speechless. What is beneficial about the PST tax structure? Exemptions on specific items? I'm going to offend some people here, but why should your diapers be exempt? Your bicycle? Your insulation? You made the decision to have a baby, ride your bike or build a house. You want to consume, you pay a tax. You don't want to pay that much tax, don't consume. You should understand the costs associated with your decisions. Why should a business subsidize the cost of your diapers? Or your insulation? I don't get it. Because ABC giant corporation makes so much money? What about XYZ small business owner who is working 12-14 hours a day to survive? Why should that guy subsidize your diapers, insulation or bike purchase? Opening a business is not an automatic guarantee of success and mass profits. Especially in a weak economy. Something the HST is trying to stimulate.

I could go on and & on. Inevitably, I think back to tax class 10 years ago, wondering why we have two sets of tax structures to learn. Even in my working career, the PST has been a nightmare to administer and remit. I couldn't have been happier to hear that we had gone to an HST structure and it frustrates me to no end that a group of uneducated people are fighting this. I'm sorry, but this is a fight driven by ignorance, not by knowledge.

All professional bodies associated with administering these taxes have spoken out in favour of the HST and are rallying to fight the ignorance plagued in this referendum:

CGA-BC

The Association came out in favour of the HST last summer and recognizes that the tax will have a positive effect on business and investment in the province.  We're looking at the long-term net good to the province—as consumers, as small business owners, as exporters to foreign markets, as British Columbians

Chartered Accountants of British Columbia

To that end, the ICABC has aligned with the Smart Tax Alliance to advocate for the benefits of the HST. If voters choose to reject the HST in the upcoming referendum and the tax is rescinded, our province will be placed at an immediate competitive disadvantage. In addition, BC will face escalating costs, as the government struggles to reinstate the provincial sales tax system and repay the federal government.

My society, CMA-BC, has also been strongly advocating the HST, aligning with Smart Tax Alliance (STA) and advocating members to activate against the "Fight HST" campaign.

Seriously people, vote if you actually have some knowledge on the issue. Don't vote if you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on both sides of the argument.

Bah, it's 2:30am, and this is a really touchy subject for me. And Mike, my post isn't directed at you per se. Just had to get it all off my chest.

  Kev

Wow, Kev.  Very well thought out response.  Clearly you know what you're talking about.

I just came from a dinner with my fellow CMA members, and the first thing we discussed was HST and who's voting what.

One of our members simply said that most intelligent people will be pro-HST, as was just described by Kevin.

[Username]

Rising fuel costs have only really been an issue for the past 4 years. GST has been around for how long?
It's hard for us to comprehend not having a GST due to our age.
I think the idea of thinking that companies and corporations will lower prices and pass on the operations savings down to the consumer is seriously naive optimistic thought. Any chance to make a profit, is a chance a company will take. It's no immediate impact to the consumer and the blame is shifted over to the government on the part of the consumer anyhow.
Given the logic of trickle down, prices to everything should technically not change to anything.
Ask yourself if you honestly think that companies will pass these savings onto their consumers or use it as a padding because of a failing economy.

Mike, I was talking about rising fuel costs in reference to the implementation of HST. If you don't know, an argument in favour of the HST is that corporations are able to claim a larger input tax credit on purchases to go against the HST they have collected in a period.

As for whether a corporation will pass on their savings to customers, that's an incredibly one-sided view of the situation. That being said, if your competitor is cutting costs as a result of their cost savings, you will likely follow suit or you won't be in business much longer. Perhaps if you were in a monopoly or oliogoply you could fix your pricing and pocket the savings.

The other side of the argument that many people fail to consider is that a business could go out and make greater expenditures as a result of those savings? That money gets reinvested into our economy and stimulates business growth. Whether it's capital expenditures or corporate lunches, there is an effect that trickles down through the economy when a business is doing well.

How about foreign investment? What if Joe Blow corporate giant wants to expand their operation to Canada. If we don't have a competitive tax structure, BC will NOT be in the picture when it comes to landing that investment. Foreign investment creates jobs, increases spending and could benefit the companies you and I work at. A company wants to do a software upgrade? The people who got a job there want to buy a new car? The implications are endless. However, if we retain the dated and abhorrent PST tax structure you can kiss those potential benefits goodbye.

At the end of the day, when I listen to someone rant about the HST I see someone who is looking at short-term losses and fails to see the big picture. And furthermore, when I ask a proponent of the PST structure WHY we should keep the PST they are left speechless. What is beneficial about the PST tax structure? Exemptions on specific items? I'm going to offend some people here, but why should your diapers be exempt? Your bicycle? Your insulation? You made the decision to have a baby, ride your bike or build a house. You want to consume, you pay a tax. You don't want to pay that much tax, don't consume. You should understand the costs associated with your decisions. Why should a business subsidize the cost of your diapers? Or your insulation? I don't get it. Because ABC giant corporation makes so much money? What about XYZ small business owner who is working 12-14 hours a day to survive? Why should that guy subsidize your diapers, insulation or bike purchase? Opening a business is not an automatic guarantee of success and mass profits. Especially in a weak economy. Something the HST is trying to stimulate.

I could go on and & on. Inevitably, I think back to tax class 10 years ago, wondering why we have two sets of tax structures to learn. Even in my working career, the PST has been a nightmare to administer and remit. I couldn't have been happier to hear that we had gone to an HST structure and it frustrates me to no end that a group of uneducated people are fighting this. I'm sorry, but this is a fight driven by ignorance, not by knowledge.

All professional bodies associated with administering these taxes have spoken out in favour of the HST and are rallying to fight the ignorance plagued in this referendum:

CGA-BC

The Association came out in favour of the HST last summer and recognizes that the tax will have a positive effect on business and investment in the province.  We're looking at the long-term net good to the province—as consumers, as small business owners, as exporters to foreign markets, as British Columbians

Chartered Accountants of British Columbia

To that end, the ICABC has aligned with the Smart Tax Alliance to advocate for the benefits of the HST. If voters choose to reject the HST in the upcoming referendum and the tax is rescinded, our province will be placed at an immediate competitive disadvantage. In addition, BC will face escalating costs, as the government struggles to reinstate the provincial sales tax system and repay the federal government.

My society, CMA-BC, has also been strongly advocating the HST, aligning with Smart Tax Alliance (STA) and advocating members to activate against the "Fight HST" campaign.

Seriously people, vote if you actually have some knowledge on the issue. Don't vote if you haven't taken the time to educate yourself on both sides of the argument.

Bah, it's 2:30am, and this is a really touchy subject for me. And Mike, my post isn't directed at you per se. Just had to get it all off my chest.

  Kev

Wow, Kev.  Very well thought out response.  Clearly you know what you're talking about.

I just came from a dinner with my fellow CMA members, and the first thing we discussed was HST and who's voting what.

One of our members simply said that most intelligent people will be pro-HST, as was just described by Kevin.

Another CMA! Nice to meet you. When did you graduate?

  Kev

[Elder_MMHS]

I just came from a dinner with my fellow CMA members, and the first thing we discussed was HST and who's voting what.

One of our members simply said that most intelligent people will be pro-HST, as was just described by Kevin.

Did everyone nod and chuckle at that statement? 

[Matsuda]

I thought maybe there's another Kevin in the club I haven't met

[DKaz]

Remember to have your HST ballots in by 4:30pm tomorrow if you haven't done so already (I have). In the Vancouver area you may drop off your ballot at Capilano Mall (Unit #81), City Square (Unit #17), Lougheed Town Centre (Unit #D7), Semiahmoo Shopping Centre (next to Purdy's), Willowbrook Shopping Centre (Unit #436), or the Service BC Office in Maple Ridge (175 - 22470 Dewdney Trunk Road).